Gold & Silver Forum - C&R License

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- - C&R License (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=315219)

Anyone have one? Any negatives?

I just heard about this from a thread or two here and on another forum the other day. I kind of like the idea of having stuff shipped to my door and being able to shop online.

I'm not a seller, I am a collector/shooter.

Correct me if I am wrong.... But with a C&R you can still upgrade them after you buy them. But you can only buy the C&R qualifying firearms in a 'historical' state. Correct?

I've had one for less than a year. No negatives so far. The positives are great - I've picked up a few SKS and Mosin Nagant M44 and 91/30s without having to screw with a FFL. Midway USA also gives you a price break (dealer pricing) on stuff if you have a C&R and apply for dealer status with them.

As far as modifying the rifles afterward, I wouldn't know. But you've got the right idea on selling - you'll get some unwanted attention if you sell too much too often using a C&R license.

There are a lot of good links out there on this - I just can't find where I've bookmarked them right now. The only other issue is the annual inspection from our friends at BATF. I think I recall reading somewhere that although you are subject to an annual inspection, they occur much less frequently (manpower restrictions, etc.) But from what I hear, as long as you've got your paperwork in order, it's no big deal.

I realize this might not be much help, but if you want opinions, mine is that there's a bigger upside than downside to having a C&R license. Go for it.:ok:

I have my application but haven't processed it yet......

Hi,try this link, www.curioandrelicfirearmsforum.yuku.com also if you join the Civilian Marlsmenship Program you can buy selected US surplus items direct from them no license needed.www.thecmp.org Regards,

Forgot To Mention

Hi,forgot to mention that with a C&R license you get a discount from some vendors.Midway and Numirich Gun Parts, are just a few .Regards

What is a C&R license?

Sorry not familiar with those acronyms

C&R = Curio and Relic

It lets you purchase older guns without having to go through another dealer for the transfer paperwork. You can get them shipped straight to your house instead of getting them shipped to a local gun shop.

Great for old guns like SKSs, Mosin-Nagants, etc.

ok thanks, I appreciate it.

http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=6&f=14&t=174340

Check that link out, tons of info about it.

They are real easy to get. I have the forms here but Havent sent them in yet. I think ill send them in to the ATF when I send my CCW stuff into the Florida Dept of Agri.

Jim Rawles over at survial blog spoke pretty positive about it

I would go for it.

T

Be advised that by having one you are voluntarily forfeiting your 4th Amendment rights. Although the likelihood of such a visit is low, the fact is that ATF can come into your home on 24 hours notice.

Did it twice.
Let it lapse twice.
Didn't like the ammo type proliferation. Prices way too high lately to justify somewhat oddball calibers. Didn't care for the mail traffic or uneven application of shipping rules from sellers.
It was fun for a while, and I wouldn't take back the experience, I just won't bother with it again....
Now, the CMP or DCM (same same) was GREAT! I got my M1 in the middle 90's for $310 IIRC. Not so now, and a big demonstration as to why I quit surplus.
Frankly, I'm into air rifles-they're quiet and quite the survival tools IMHO.
Have fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hivemindgammahydra7 (Post 1375039)

Be advised that by having one you are voluntarily forfeiting your 4th Amendment rights.

It sounds stupid, but that's the main thing that's kept me from a C&R license. I've had the completed application for a couple years, but haven't mailed it in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ag_man (Post 1375090)

It sounds stupid, but that's the main thing that's kept me from a C&R license. I've had the completed application for a couple years, but haven't mailed it in.

Not stupid at all, just well-informed. A friend of mine who writes for Guns & Ammo and who has appeared on Tales of the Gun as a consultant was told by his attorney NOT to get a C & R license for this very reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hivemindgammahydra7 (Post 1375788)

Wow, aint that something! I had no idea, but it makes total sense. Im gonna shred mine up. Good thing I procrastinated in sending it! :adore:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hivemindgammahydra7 (Post 1375039)

Thought you had the option of bringing your collection and bound book to them for inspection ?

My best friend has a Class 3 permit. While he has some very nice toys, I've always called him a nutcase (in a nice way!), because as a holder of a Class 3, he is subject to warrantless searches, any time, any where, by any LEO. No thanks!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hivemindgammahydra7 (Post 1375039)

Great advice.

Been there done that with a regular class license - it's a pain in the you-know-what.

They "do" come as they "don't like it that you have it" and "I just told-you-so."

:signs14::signs14:

Quote:

Originally Posted by hypervel (Post 1375058)

Frankly, I'm into air rifles-they're quiet and quite the survival tools IMHO.
Have fun.

How are air rifles a good survival tool?

Looked this up, in no way are you giving up your 4th amendment rights. All the ATF asks is up to 1 time a year either a visit or a meeting at their place to see your books on purchases and sales. From what I read this is very rare if at all. Now remember all the rules can change in the NWO but then again I follow the constitution and illegal entry into my home can be met with fire power. ;-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heimdhal (Post 1376190)

Wow, aint that something! I had no idea, but it makes total sense. Im gonna shred mine up. Good thing I procrastinated in sending it! :adore:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cebu_4_2 (Post 1869498)

They don't want to just see your records. Duting an ATF C&R licensee compliance audit, they may ask to see any/all weapons, ammo, and records associated with your license. This includes storage areas for the weapons & ammo.

Here's a post about an ATF C&R audit (Google will find plenty of other similar reports):

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=7481

First of all from the C&R reg handbook section 478.23 a. through d. details the inspection and the "rights" of "ANY ATF Officer" In a nut shell IF they are not aware of any violation they may inspect during "business hours" also construed as "when you are home" your premises, once during a 12 month period. 478.23 subsection (c) states;(c) may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector for the purpose of inspecting or examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition referred to in paragraph (a) of this section (1) for ensuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements....

Compliance audits for C&R license holders USED to be very rare. Over the past year or two, however, audit frequency has greatly increased. I've read reports online from licensees in the northeast, Texas, as well as Ohio (a friend was audited in OH). They are generally told that the audit is "routine", and that the BATFE is checking a bunch of licensees in that area.

During the audit, the BATFE does not just ask about weapons/ammo/records of acquisition & disposition. They may ask about the presence of large dogs on the property, whether the weapons are stored in a safe, and plenty of other nosey questions.

A C&R license offers the ability to buy "stuff" at a possible discount over your local retail operation, but also comes with some serious potential liabilities.

I am active on a number of C&R related collectors forums, and an increasing number of members (including me) have dropped their license to avoid the increased likelihood of government intrusion.

JJ speaks the truth as always. I have been seeing a lot more reports of "check ups" on those with these licenses. Just not worth it in my eyes.

I'm not buying the scare mongering. I've had my C&R for around ten years now. $30 every three years is nothing when you consider how much money I've saved from Midway, Brownell's, and Graf's. In that ten years I've never heard word one from ATF. I get one or two "legal update" types of letters every year that look to me like they are really meant for FFL 01 types.

I just don't see how ATF could even begin to worry about all the C&R types who aren't stirring up the dust themselves. In all the time I've had it, I've never even sold one gun. I buy what I want and I keep it. And I haven't bought anything C&R for several years now. Now it is all about saving money on reloading stuff!

If you are going to worry about "being on a list" because of your C&R, then you better ditch your CCW as well. Plus I had to be fingerprinted when I joined the Army. Plus fingerprinted again when I got the CCW. Fingerprinted and background checked when I got my teacher's certification. And I've had that "multiple handgun transaction" form filled out on me a couple of times. If the Feds are doing some type of computer search of their records to figure out "who the gun people are," it's safe to say I'm on there! I'm not going to give up my hobby to worry about it.

Gregg

I agree, I am already so high on the AFT radar my C&R isn't going to matter. In addition to being ex-military and having a CCW I used to be a full line dealer and a class 3 dealer, I still own class 3 firearms...trust me, they know who I am...lol. However the discounts I get from various companies is well worth the cost of the license.

I would add I have read some of the horror stories as well but I discount many of them as wanna-bes posing. Like many posts on just about any forum one true story will spawn 20 false ones from people who want to impress their peers. If the NRA/ILA reported a big increase in C&R inspection I would believe it but not stories told by 14 year old kids in a forum. I am not knocking any forum! But the fact is people don't always tell the truth on them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tulsamal (Post 1870786)

Gregg -

I'm far from worried about being on a list - I'm sure that I'm already on a number of lists/databases. Past security clearance, full auto/suppressor paperwork, CHL permit, C&R license,...

I had my C&R from 1999 to 2008, but chose to not renew it. From what I see on trusted forums from long term members (such as gunboards.com), and from what I was directly told by a friend of 20+ years (who introduced me to C&R, and who was audited himself earlier this year), the BATFE has increased their number of C&R licensee audits. Some are random (not triggered by the sale or recovery of weapons), while others seem to be the result of casting a broad net (i.e., auditing all licensees in a certain city or region of a state).

I'm not trying to be a fear monger here, but am merely stating the facts as I understand them. Obviously, it's every individual licensee's decision as to whether the $$$ savings from Grafs/Midway/Brownells/Century/AIM is worth the increased chance of a surprise or pre-scheduled audit by a semi-educated government minion.

I chose to drop my license last year. With the lack of incoming "goodies", as were commonly available 10 years ago (Swede Mausers, Finn Mosin Nagants, Turk Mausers, cheap ammo.....), I haven't missed the license much at all.

For some fun-filled reading on compliance audits, you might review:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...ighlight=audit

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...ighlight=audit

What some of my fellow long term -List members on C&R collector lists are doing is accidentally allowing their C&R license to expire (sometimes, people get forgetful). After a month or two, they reapply for a new license. Upon receipt of the new C&R license, they start a new bound book. The C&R license is different from other classes of FFLs in that the old bound book does NOT have to be sent to BATFE once you cease operations as a licensee.

The hundreds or thousands (yes, some -List members are "up there") of C&R goodies acquired under the old license are NOT entered into their new bound book, and are NOT subject to BATFE rectal examination unless they are sold under the new license. Truly a shame, huh??:sarc: This is analogous to a first time licensee NOT entering C&R weapons into your bound book if they were acquired prior to you becoming licensed.

Obviously, any C&R weapons acquired while the individual has the "new" C&R license are entered into the new bound book & are subject to BATFE audit. The number of weapons in your new bound book is almost certainly FAR FEWER than the number in your old bound book, greatly reducing your risk of "issues" during a BATFE audit.

Quote:

Obviously, any C&R weapons acquired while the individual has the "new" C&R license are entered into the new bound book & are subject to BATFE audit. The number of weapons in your new bound book is almost certainly FAR FEWER than the number in your old bound book, greatly reducing your risk of "issues" during a BATFE audit.

That's not a bad idea. I bought a whole bunch of old military rifles and handguns the first few years I had my C&R. Then it tapered down to a couple a year. Now it has been several years since I bought even one. As you said, most of the flood of cheap and desirable imports has slowed to a trickle. I renew my C&R now strictly for the discounts. I bet I save the cost of the C&R in one order from Midway. And this year I ordered a ton of AR-15 stuff from Brownell's. I wouldn't want to lose that discount. But it would be kind of "cute" to have a C&R and NO bound book at all! (OK, an empty one!)

One final comment. I did read some other threads about audits. And they said the agent wanted to see the items in the book. And that he didn't "look in their safe" or look at any of their non-C&R firearms. My main compliance worry would be the whole "add a C&R firearm that you bought without using the C&R." It's just easy to be technically in violation and not even realize it. You buy a S&W K-22 at a gun store. You fill out the form and go home. If it was made in 1960, you are good to go. If it was made in 1958, it should be added to your book.

So I bring this up because I don't see how it could actually become an issue. The 4473 stays with the dealer unless a trace is put on it for some reason. Which isn't going to happen if I still own it and it is in my safe. So the ATF audit _shouldn't_ ever realize there is a "problem."

If we exclude that sort of thing, I'm sure my bound book would be fine. I never sell anything. I have all their serial numbers written down. I would be very unhappy to have the whole thing go down but I don't think it would be a problem. In my case, I would opt to take my guns to their office. I don't know why they would want to see a bunch of old Mosins and K-31's though!

Gregg